tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post4300669796723174872..comments2024-03-11T04:54:26.827-07:00Comments on THE HOCKEY SCHTICK: Why Earth is a closed thermodynamic system that must obey the 2nd Law of ThermodynamicsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-69680037555680568832017-09-29T04:34:32.453-07:002017-09-29T04:34:32.453-07:00Earth loses "about three kilograms (3 kg) of ...Earth loses "about three kilograms (3 kg) of hydrogen and 50 grams (50 g) of helium per second" to space (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_escape) so it is an open system according to the definition at the end of this piece. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02723437600664270099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-66875842618465559162016-03-10T10:06:41.900-08:002016-03-10T10:06:41.900-08:00what about during the early years of the earth'...what about during the early years of the earth's formation when it was bombarded by asteroids, even after life took place and dinosaurs went extinct? could that be deemed as an open system?rasoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03995247531706482452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-32796272797937871862015-01-05T18:20:53.489-08:002015-01-05T18:20:53.489-08:00Thanks to the notorious climate troll Doug Cotton...Thanks to the notorious climate troll Doug Cotton continuing to waste my time removing his banned comments, from now on, all comments to this blog will be from members of the blog only, for now to eternity. <br /><br />Bye bye Douggie.<br /><br />All those who wish to become preregistered members of the blog, send an email to hockeyschtick@gmail.comMShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06714540297202434542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-62011639745637623212015-01-05T16:35:38.727-08:002015-01-05T16:35:38.727-08:00Ah it is Doug Cotton as usual hiding behind "...Ah it is Doug Cotton as usual hiding behind "Anonymous" or the multitude of aliases.<br /><br />How many times do I have to tell you that you are permanently banned for several lifetimes of each of your aliases from ever commenting again at this site. Go away, don't ever read or comment upon any post ever again, including your aliases.MShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06714540297202434542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-80597627827141778842015-01-05T16:24:03.562-08:002015-01-05T16:24:03.562-08:00Roderic & Anonymous:
Did either of you even r...Roderic & Anonymous:<br /><br />Did either of you even read this post? These are the same old tired arguments I've refuted time and again in hundreds of posts over the last six years. Put "entropy" and "2nd Law" in the HS search box to read all of these prior posts which I'm repeating in this comment.<br /><br />Then read the entire 2nd chapter of Caltech physicist Sean Carroll, about "the Heavy Hand of Entropy" in his best-selling book "From Eternity to Here" for a great introduction to the meaning, origin, and astonishing significance of entropy/2nd law to just about everything in the universe including space-time, life, philosophy, physics, cosmology, climate, etc. etc.<br /><br />http://www.pdf-archive.com/2014/07/24/from-eternity-to-here/from-eternity-to-here.pdf<br /><br />After studying all of the above, if you can find any specific flaw in Carroll's or my work, then come back to comment & be very specific. MShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06714540297202434542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-86074199298565827872015-01-04T14:42:12.642-08:002015-01-04T14:42:12.642-08:00Entropy in a closed system may decrease only by in...Entropy in a closed system may decrease only by increasing the entropy in another system. That is what the 2nd law of thermodynamics means. It is only in an isolated system that entropy can only increase. <br /><br />Thus the entropy of system earth can decrease by increasing the entropy of surrounding space. Saying the earth is a closed system allows for this because transfer of energy can occur between earth and the rest. <br /><br />There is the continued us of this trope "cold gasses increasing the temperature of hot gasses" as if people are saying that heat flows backwards. That's not what is being said. The rate of flow of heat between two bodies of gas depends on the difference of temperature between them. The difference in temperature of the top of the atmosphere and the troposphere might be large but it's smaller than the difference between open space and the troposphere. Thus the rate of flow of heat is smaller in the former case. It's not that the cold gas is heating the warm gas, it's that the troposphere doesn't cool as fast.<br /><br />There is a tendency to get "flow of heat" mixed up with radiation. It's not exactly the same thing. Heat flow is an intellectual construct. IR radiation is one way it occurs. Saying that back radiation occurs isn't the same thing as saying that heat flows backwards. Back radiation doesn't happen without forward radiation, which is always in the direction of heat flow.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13020031892651607136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-46788161386607929072015-01-03T08:35:57.586-08:002015-01-03T08:35:57.586-08:00You're right, the highest temperature ever rec...You're right, the highest temperature ever recorded on Earth was 136F or 58C in 1922 in Libya. The daytime moon temp is 123C. The atmosphere/albedo are a large cooling, not warming, mechanism for Earth. MShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06714540297202434542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-48880382787950715762015-01-03T02:30:51.767-08:002015-01-03T02:30:51.767-08:00Thanks for the reply. We agree on the gravitation/...Thanks for the reply. We agree on the gravitation/mass explanation by you and Maxwell. <br /><br />What interests me is that Jim Hansen and crew keep saying that CO2 warms the planet, but since the moon's surface is about 123C and the earth's surface is said to be about 66C at maximum (I need to verify that 66C figure some more) then it looks to me like the lower atmosphere is all about cooling at the tropics and distributing the heat around the system. <br /><br />It would seem that anyone could look at that 123C vs. 66C and see that the Jim Hansen inspired CO2 will fry us idea just does not make much sense. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-26545880397173011572015-01-02T20:37:14.807-08:002015-01-02T20:37:14.807-08:00Thanks Kevin for your insights as always, and we a...Thanks Kevin for your insights as always, and we agree as usual. It's astonishing to me how folks try to weasel around entropy and the 2nd law, but as well stated by Caltech physicist Sean Carroll, the second law is "Natures most reliable law"<br /><br />I recommend his 2nd chapter titled "The Heavy Hand of Entropy" in his best-selling book "From Eternity to Here" for a great introduction to the meaning, origin, and astonishing significance of entropy/2nd law to just about everything in the universe including space-time, life, philosophy, physics, cosmology, etc. etc.<br /><br />http://www.pdf-archive.com/2014/07/24/from-eternity-to-here/from-eternity-to-here.pdfMShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06714540297202434542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-7351678206997887052015-01-02T19:20:26.250-08:002015-01-02T19:20:26.250-08:00MS, very nice as always.
My training did not stat...MS, very nice as always.<br /><br />My training did not state that an open system can ever violate the second law. Rather that when analyzing an open system it is important to recognize that energy may leave/enter as a mass of something like a combustible fuel (the energy is in the chemical bonds broken when the fuel is burned), or the latent heat in water vapor.<br /><br />Folks that demand a pass from the second law by claiming that the Earth (with atmosphere) is an open system are totally wrong on that account as well. Open or closed the second law still applies.<br /><br />For example, Helium gas does exit the Earth, it is emitted via radioactive decay from rocks. It floats upwards and exits to space, that is why there is very little in the atmosphere, it's all just "moving along". So the Earth's mass is actually getting smaller from the loss of Helium. But it is also absorbing micrometeorites all the time, so the mass of the Earth is probably nearly a constant. The Earth is very very close to a closed system, but like all human imposed constraints there is always a little bit of gray area involved.<br /><br />Nice summary and totally correct as stated. <br /><br />Cheers, KevinKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-26890282079592767072015-01-02T13:44:36.735-08:002015-01-02T13:44:36.735-08:00Yes, the Moon gets much hotter during the day as y...Yes, the Moon gets much hotter during the day as you said, and also much colder at night (-233C). A huge range in temperature of 123+ 233C = 356C between day and night, as compared to Earth's diurnal range of of only 10 degrees between night and day. The main reasons are that water vapor evaporation and clouds cool the earth during the day and the Maxwell gravito thermal greenhouse effect keeps the surface at all times night and day ~33C warmer than if earth didn't have an atmosphere. The length of day also is an important factor next in importance. MShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06714540297202434542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142988674703954802.post-13874917729002033072015-01-02T13:02:36.457-08:002015-01-02T13:02:36.457-08:00Another great post in a long series of great posts...Another great post in a long series of great posts. Thanks for all the hard work.<br /><br />I have a question that may well be off-topic for this post but is on the theme at least. I have read that the surface of the the moon gets to about 123C (253F) at its hottest. Is this true? And how does that compare to how hot the earth gets at its hottest? (I assume at the equator at high noon)<br /><br />Now it is true that the slow rotation of the moon compared to the 24 hour rotation of the earth would have some effect on the difference in maximum temperatures; but would not the atmosphere be the vast majority of the difference?<br /><br />Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this issue. ~MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com